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i'm wondering now if the Mrs John Smith thing is US etiquette or if it applies over here as well (UK).
i'll have to investigate but I've never heard of it before.
I've also noticed on US tv shows that married women are referred to as Miss Smith rather than Mrs Smith. never understood that one.
i'm wondering now if the Mrs John Smith thing is US etiquette or if it applies over here as well (UK).
i'll have to investigate but I've never heard of it before.
I've also noticed on US tv shows that married women are referred to as Miss Smith rather than Mrs Smith. never understood that one.
Sometimes I find here in the US, and being from the North, that the Miss used for a married woman is a Southern courtesy but that can be more of a Miss Peggy Sue rather than Miss Smith. It could also be poor/lazy pronunciation and people are cutting off the word Mrs. and not saying the whole word so it ends up sounding like Miss or they are saying Ms.
Doesn't anyone think that calling someone Mrs. John Smith in this day and age is anachronistic?
I was married, though no longer. I got married in 1975 and, even back then, woe betide anyone who addressed me as if I were an appendage of my husband. ;)!
While I find this discussion and all the approaches very interesting, I definitely do a double take when we receive mail addressed to Mrs. John Smith or Mr. and Mrs. John Smith. It makes me wrinkle my nose-- I took his last name but I certainly have my own first name!
I do not use titles, just first and last names, when addressing envelopes. Also, when it's a couple, I usually switch the order of the names when I write the salutation inside the card. Can't play favorites ;)
__________________ Sherri
"When I do good I feel good, when I do bad I feel bad, and that is my religion." --Abraham Lincoln
Technically, and the way it was taught years ago, if something is addressed Mrs. Jane Doe, it's assumed your husband is dead.
Yup, there's that factor. Also, just to throw an extra bit of info into this conversation, especially for the "research nerds":
The origin of "Mrs. John Doe" is actually a matter of grammar. Not status, per se (although one could get into a sociolinguistic argument about entrenching beliefs over centuries of lexical development, but that takes us to another level).
Here's why: the title "Mrs." literally means "the wife of." When calling someone Mrs. John Doe, you were literally saying "John Doe's wife." Not lunlike the way "MacDonald" means "son of Donald" and "Fitzpatrick" means "illegitimate child of Patrick." So up until pretty recently, history-wise, if you said "Mrs. Jane Doe" people would've wondered what the heck you were talking about... How can Jane have a wife?
The intro of Ms. was, in part, a response to an unsolvable grammar conundrum. It made it both socially AND linguistically accurate to refer to a woman by title + first + last name. So, if Jane Smith married John Doe and took his name, she could call herself Ms. Jane Doe or Mrs. John Doe depending on the situation, etc.
Now, I'm not advocating for any particular approach to be right or wrong nowadays, but I find the historical background interesting. When I first read the history on it (back in my student days), it gave me a different sense of why it had been standard usage and unquestioned by even the most outspoken women of bygone eras.
Yup, there's that factor. Also, just to throw an extra bit of info into this conversation, especially for the "research nerds":
The origin of "Mrs. John Doe" is actually a matter of grammar. Not status, per se (although one could get into a sociolinguistic argument about entrenching beliefs over centuries of lexical development, but that takes us to another level).
Here's why: the title "Mrs." literally means "the wife of." When calling someone Mrs. John Doe, you were literally saying "John Doe's wife." Not lunlike the way "MacDonald" means "son of Donald" and "Fitzpatrick" means "illegitimate child of Patrick." So up until pretty recently, history-wise, if you said "Mrs. Jane Doe" people would've wondered what the heck you were talking about... How can Jane have a wife?
The intro of Ms. was, in part, a response to an unsolvable grammar conundrum. It made it both socially AND linguistically accurate to refer to a woman by title + first + last name. So, if Jane Smith married John Doe and took his name, she could call herself Ms. Jane Doe or Mrs. John Doe depending on the situation, etc.
Now, I'm not advocating for any particular approach to be right or wrong nowadays, but I find the historical background interesting. When I first read the history on it (back in my student days), it gave me a different sense of why it had been standard usage and unquestioned by even the most outspoken women of bygone eras.
I love these forums - I always learn the most interesting things! Thanks for that little history/grammar/linguistics lesson... ;)
Yup, there's that factor. Also, just to throw an extra bit of info into this conversation, especially for the "research nerds":
The origin of "Mrs. John Doe" is actually a matter of grammar. Not status, per se (although one could get into a sociolinguistic argument about entrenching beliefs over centuries of lexical development, but that takes us to another level).
Here's why: the title "Mrs." literally means "the wife of." When calling someone Mrs. John Doe, you were literally saying "John Doe's wife." Not lunlike the way "MacDonald" means "son of Donald" and "Fitzpatrick" means "illegitimate child of Patrick." So up until pretty recently, history-wise, if you said "Mrs. Jane Doe" people would've wondered what the heck you were talking about... How can Jane have a wife?
The intro of Ms. was, in part, a response to an unsolvable grammar conundrum. It made it both socially AND linguistically accurate to refer to a woman by title + first + last name. So, if Jane Smith married John Doe and took his name, she could call herself Ms. Jane Doe or Mrs. John Doe depending on the situation, etc.
Now, I'm not advocating for any particular approach to be right or wrong nowadays, but I find the historical background interesting. When I first read the history on it (back in my student days), it gave me a different sense of why it had been standard usage and unquestioned by even the most outspoken women of bygone eras.
Until I read this interesting forum I thought that this was common knowledge. I love my husband and am happy to be called Mrs. His Name. If someone is nice enough to send me mail I'm certainly not going to go looking for a reason to be offended. Really, they can address it however they want! If I am using the woman's name I always use Ms or else it sounds like she is married to herself!
I can be quit the staunch feminist at times, but if someone addressed me as Mrs. His name, I would think it was sweet and old-fashioned. People are always complaining that no one has manners anymore, but how do I know what manners I'm supposed to still be following and which ones have become offensive?
However, if someone addressed me as such because they were purposely trying to belittle me, I'd correct them by telling them to call me Dr. My name. I earned that title and if you want to play the power trip game, then so can I. In fact, the feminist in me loves playing that game.
Dr. & Mrs. JL Smith
Major & Mrs. JL Smith
Captain & Mrs. JL Smith, Retired
Pastor & Mrs. JL Smith
Women as military I'm not 100% sure. I've read to do Major AB & Mr. JL Smith but I'm not cards to any couple with the wife being in the service.
This one is fun:
Captain JL Smith & Dr. AB. Smith
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I like getting mail, cards, invitations, etc., so I don't get all wrapped up in how the sender addressed the envelope. But I do have a question .... I am never sure how to address the Christmas card to my gay friends. I usually put both names on the first line, but then I wonder whose name I should list first.
It looks like this:
John Doe and Jim Smith
Any thoughts on how I should address the envelope?
I like getting mail, cards, invitations, etc., so I don't get all wrapped up in how the sender addressed the envelope. But I do have a question .... I am never sure how to address the Christmas card to my gay friends. I usually put both names on the first line, but then I wonder whose name I should list first.
It looks like this:
John Doe and Jim Smith
Any thoughts on how I should address the envelope?
This from a website about proper address:
) When each member of a couple uses a different surname, just list each name fully putting them in alphabetical order by family name:
Mr. Thomas Appleton
and Mr. Richard Zappa
1234 Weston Street
Springfield, MA 12345
If both partners in a same-sex couple use the same last name, list them in alphabetical order by given name.
Ms. Adeline Henderson
and Ms. Zelda Henderson
5678 Taylor Street
Springfield, MA 12345
) When each member of a couple uses a different surname, just list each name fully putting them in alphabetical order by family name:
Mr. Thomas Appleton
and Mr. Richard Zappa
1234 Weston Street
Springfield, MA 12345
If both partners in a same-sex couple use the same last name, list them in alphabetical order by given name.
Ms. Adeline Henderson
and Ms. Zelda Henderson
5678 Taylor Street
Springfield, MA 12345
I like getting mail, cards, invitations, etc., so I don't get all wrapped up in how the sender addressed the envelope. But I do have a question .... I am never sure how to address the Christmas card to my gay friends. I usually put both names on the first line, but then I wonder whose name I should list first.
It looks like this:
John Doe and Jim Smith
Any thoughts on how I should address the envelope?
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Love this thread! My Great Grandmother called her husband "Mr. Stephenson" all her life. I never once heard her call him by a first name. As a little girl, I referred to him as "Grandfather Mr. Stephenson." I'm sure she'd have a strong opinion on addressing envelopes if she were still around
Well after all my concerns that initially started this email, the recipient has never acknowledge receipt of the card lol! So she was either so offended she cannot bare to speak to me, or she paid no attention lol!
Well after all my concerns that initially started this email, the recipient has never acknowledge receipt of the card lol! So she was either so offended she cannot bare to speak to me, or she paid no attention lol!
That's pretty funny, Jukie.
I know I tend to overthink almost everything, and then it turns out not to make any difference.
I remember an old saying: "I'm an old man and have had many worries in my life - most of which never happened."
__________________ Bugga in OK
"Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible." Dalai Lama
